[time-nuts] Ronald Held's main question (WB6BNQ)
Ronald Held
ronaldheld at gmail.com
Tue Dec 18 11:43:50 EST 2007
thanks to Bill and others for all of the links. I will find the time
to read them and then come up with more questions. My final comment
for now, is that I must have posted something incorrectly. I am
looking for an source of more accurate time not to drive my computer
but just for its own sake, starting out as a high accuracy Quartz WIS.
Ronald
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Date: Dec 18, 2007 4:32 AM
Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 41, Issue 64
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: HP5359A non-linearities (SAIDJACK at aol.com)
2. Re: Antennas in apartments (Chuck Harris)
3. Ronald Held's main question (WB6BNQ)
4. Re: Ronald Held's main question (WB6BNQ)
5. Re: Ronald Held's main question (Magnus Danielson)
6. Re: Ronald Held's main question (Hal Murray)
7. Re: Ronald Held's main question (WB6BNQ)
8. Re: Ronald Held's main question (Rob Kimberley)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:13:12 EST
From: SAIDJACK at aol.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5359A non-linearities
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Message-ID: <ce9.2128c4f5.349886b8 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 12/17/2007 16:30:19 Pacific Standard Time,
magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org writes:
>Have you looked at the programmers manual? Should be the way to go.
>Cheers,
>Magnus
Hi Magnus,
was hoping to avoid that :(
Visi offers a graphical capture display for TI, but the version I have has
only a limited capture range, and I don't know how to save the data yet.
Thanks,
Said
**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:14:53 -0500
From: Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Antennas in apartments
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID: <47673B2D.7080608 at erols.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Neon John wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:43:41 -0500, Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:
>
>> Neon John wrote:
>>> Federal law says that landlords cannot prohibit satellite TV
dishes. Another one of
>>> those "best laws money can buy". The implication for a solution
to the GPS antenna
>>> problem is fairly obvious.....
>> I think you need to read the law a little bit more carefully!
>
> Should have figured you'd be the one to make that kind of pedantic reply.
Really? I wasn't aware that I had a reputation for being a pedant.
>> What the law says, as I read it, is that you can put up radio,
>> TV, or satellite antennas on your own property, regardless of
>> covenants, home owners association rules, or zoning ordinances.
>> But, if the property isn't yours, or isn't available for your
>> exclusive use, it is up to the owner (or controlling authority)
>> to decide whether you may or may not.
>
> I'm neither interested in parsing individual sentences in a regulation (I hire a
> lawyer to do that for me) nor debating this guy's controlling status. As a landlord,
> I've been told that if I want to avoid a slew of legal fees and hassles, let the
> tenants put up their dishes as they wish as long as the placement is reasonable. As
> an observer, I notice that most every apartment complex I've observed follows that
> same guidance.
And I explained the bounds of "reasonable". I cannot imagine why that would
put you in a huff.
>
> I'll rephrase. "The implication for a solution to the GPS antenna problem is fairly
> obvious 99.999% of the time..... Put the dish up, strap on a GPS receiver and see
> what happens. Sheesh.
I long ago tired of the petty rules and regulations the city folk foist
onto each other. So I bought a farm and do pretty much as I please.
-Chuck Harris
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:07:16 -0800
From: WB6BNQ <wb6bnq at cox.net>
Subject: [time-nuts] Ronald Held's main question
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID: <47675584.B3B2F23A at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Ronald,
This list server is composed of three general classes of people.
Those who 1) have
just a passing interest in the subject, 2) those who delve into it on
a professional
or amateur working level and 3) Some seriously warped individuals who
far exceed the
distribution of what is considered normal (you know who you are!).
Because of the above definition, the range of provided answers will
cover many view
points. Thus, you may find the responses difficult to sort out for
your purposes.
I may be wrong but am going to deduce from your last sentence, "If I
can get a signal
inside or outside, what then ?", that you have had very little to no
exposure to the
field of Time and Frequency Metrology. In that regard, and to answer
your question,
I highly suggest reading the following NIST publications.
# 1. The first is a general history of NIST and its standards. It is noteworthy
because it gives a sense of why we are where we are today.
http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/1485.pdf
# 2. The second one is a short paper that delves into the mechanics of Time &
Frequency measurement. This one will give you a basic understanding
of how it is
done. This paper is clearly part of a bigger publication, although I
have not seen
the whole publication.
http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/1498.pdf
# 3. This is the - - - BIBLE - - - Strongly recommended
This is a very large manual at more than 80 megabytes, but very well
worth the time
to download it. This NBS (NIST) publication, produced in 1974, should
be the defacto
reading material for any starting class in Time & Frequency metrology. Why some
idealist at NIST lost their marbles and decided they should not make
it available on
their WEB site is beyond me.
Fortunately, it is available at the following Hawaii University site :
http://digicoll.manoa.hawaii.edu/techreports/PDF/NBS140.pdf
It seems that you have some need or want to make your computer more
accurate from a
TIME point of view. A number of approaches can be used for such an
undertaking. If
you are just looking to make you computer relatively accurate, a few computer
programs are available that will synchronize your computer to a
recognized NETWORK
standard server. This method may be all that you need and it requires no local
hardware and fussing with antennas and the like.
Before spending money and physical effort that may not be necessary, please read
through the 3 above references to determine if you really want to get
involved to the
level of additional hardware and expense.
Bill....WB6BNQ
Ronald Held wrote:
> Since the moving option is out, perhaps I need to investigate whether
> I currently can get any inside or outside signal. Is ther3=e an
> inexpensive way given that I do not have any circuit assemble skills?
> The complex will allow dishes as long as the are completely inside the
> balcony(I speculate that it is at the behest of the local cable
> company). I do not recall seeing any dishes on building in my complex.
> If I can get a signal inside or outside, what then?
> Ronald
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 23:39:05 -0800
From: WB6BNQ <wb6bnq at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ronald Held's main question
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID: <47677918.6D850766 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Ronald,
Here are 3 Hewlett Packard appnotes that are in the same vain as the
NBS 140 booklet. In
many ways these HP items are better written. The first one was
written in 1961. The
second one is an update (1974), as is the third (1976). Each are
different and equally
worth having on the shelf.
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6171EN.pdf
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6183EN.pdf
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6247EN.pdf
Bill....WB6BNQ
WB6BNQ wrote:
> Hi Ronald,
>
> This list server is composed of three general classes of people. Those who 1) have
> just a passing interest in the subject, 2) those who delve into it on a professional
> or amateur working level and 3) Some seriously warped individuals who far exceed the
> distribution of what is considered normal (you know who you are!).
>
> Because of the above definition, the range of provided answers will cover many view
> points. Thus, you may find the responses difficult to sort out for your purposes.
>
> I may be wrong but am going to deduce from your last sentence, "If I can get a signal
> inside or outside, what then ?", that you have had very little to no exposure to the
> field of Time and Frequency Metrology. In that regard, and to answer your question,
> I highly suggest reading the following NIST publications.
>
> # 1. The first is a general history of NIST and its standards. It is noteworthy
> because it gives a sense of why we are where we are today.
>
> http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/1485.pdf
>
> # 2. The second one is a short paper that delves into the mechanics of Time &
> Frequency measurement. This one will give you a basic understanding of how it is
> done. This paper is clearly part of a bigger publication, although I have not seen
> the whole publication.
>
> http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/1498.pdf
>
> # 3. This is the - - - BIBLE - - - Strongly recommended
>
> This is a very large manual at more than 80 megabytes, but very well worth the time
> to download it. This NBS (NIST) publication, produced in 1974, should be the defacto
> reading material for any starting class in Time & Frequency metrology. Why some
> idealist at NIST lost their marbles and decided they should not make it available on
> their WEB site is beyond me.
>
> Fortunately, it is available at the following Hawaii University site :
>
> http://digicoll.manoa.hawaii.edu/techreports/PDF/NBS140.pdf
>
> It seems that you have some need or want to make your computer more accurate from a
> TIME point of view. A number of approaches can be used for such an undertaking. If
> you are just looking to make you computer relatively accurate, a few computer
> programs are available that will synchronize your computer to a recognized NETWORK
> standard server. This method may be all that you need and it requires no local
> hardware and fussing with antennas and the like.
>
> Before spending money and physical effort that may not be necessary, please read
> through the 3 above references to determine if you really want to get involved to the
> level of additional hardware and expense.
>
> Bill....WB6BNQ
>
> Ronald Held wrote:
>
> > Since the moving option is out, perhaps I need to investigate whether
> > I currently can get any inside or outside signal. Is ther3=e an
> > inexpensive way given that I do not have any circuit assemble skills?
> > The complex will allow dishes as long as the are completely inside the
> > balcony(I speculate that it is at the behest of the local cable
> > company). I do not recall seeing any dishes on building in my complex.
> > If I can get a signal inside or outside, what then?
> > Ronald
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 08:58:24 +0100 (CET)
From: Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ronald Held's main question
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Message-ID: <20071218.085824.-1319615354.cfmd at bredband.net>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
From: WB6BNQ <wb6bnq at cox.net>
Subject: [time-nuts] Ronald Held's main question
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:07:16 -0800
Message-ID: <47675584.B3B2F23A at cox.net>
Bill,
Note sure if I am in group 2 or 3.
> # 3. This is the - - - BIBLE - - - Strongly recommended
>
> This is a very large manual at more than 80 megabytes, but very well worth the time
> to download it. This NBS (NIST) publication, produced in 1974, should be the defacto
> reading material for any starting class in Time & Frequency metrology. Why some
> idealist at NIST lost their marbles and decided they should not make it available on
> their WEB site is beyond me.
>
> Fortunately, it is available at the following Hawaii University site :
>
> http://digicoll.manoa.hawaii.edu/techreports/PDF/NBS140.pdf
NIST didn't totally lost their marbles. What they did was to make an updated
version in the form of NIST Technical Note 1337, 352 pages thick.
The link you get from their page
http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/generalpubs.htm
is however wrong, as it only gives the front document. Maybe one needs to
indicate to them that they should make a propper page for it. I have downloaded
the full TN1337 before, so I'll be fine, but they should fix their webpage.
The TN1337 contains some newer material which you *do* want to read, as it
fills the gap that NBS140 does not cover. Thanks for the link to the NBS140
never the less.
Cheers,
Magnus
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 00:05:29 -0800
From: Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ronald Held's main question
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID: <20071218080530.00C88BE32 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Here are 3 Hewlett Packard appnotes that are in the same vain as the
> NBS 140 booklet. In many ways these HP items are better written. The
> first one was written in 1961. The second one is an update (1974), as
> is the third (1976). Each are different and equally worth having on
> the shelf.
Speaking of neat old publications...
It was probably in the late 70s that a friend showed me a small booklet from
NBS.
It was describing how to use TV signals to calibrate your local clock. I
think NBC and HP cooperated.
I think the story was that NBC had their whole network of TV stations locked
to a master clock. It was very stable except for jumps when the phone
company rewired some link. I think they used to measure various sites
monthly and publish the differences between local tick and correct time.
Does anybody remember that one?
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 00:13:26 -0800
From: WB6BNQ <wb6bnq at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ronald Held's main question
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID: <47678126.D715DBE2 at cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Hal,
Yes I remember them. Two versions existed, one used for common view
with line 10
and the other one used the color burst frequency which was lock to a
Rb source at
the network. It was only good when a networked program was being aired. Both
are referred to in the links I provided. I have, somewhere, the actual paper
article about the second one with schematics, etc..
Bill....WB6BNQ
Hal Murray wrote:
> > Here are 3 Hewlett Packard appnotes that are in the same vain as the
> > NBS 140 booklet. In many ways these HP items are better written. The
> > first one was written in 1961. The second one is an update (1974), as
> > is the third (1976). Each are different and equally worth having on
> > the shelf.
>
> Speaking of neat old publications...
>
> It was probably in the late 70s that a friend showed me a small booklet from
> NBS.
>
> It was describing how to use TV signals to calibrate your local clock. I
> think NBC and HP cooperated.
>
> I think the story was that NBC had their whole network of TV stations locked
> to a master clock. It was very stable except for jumps when the phone
> company rewired some link. I think they used to measure various sites
> monthly and publish the differences between local tick and correct time.
>
> Does anybody remember that one?
>
> --
> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:31:44 -0000
From: "Rob Kimberley" <rk at timing-consultants.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ronald Held's main question
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID:
<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAOYAZyOzV8ERq+LmT45ypI7CgAAAEAAAAPUwQK8WQDlCtFpNX+r7StgBAAAAAA==@timing-consultants.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Excellent documents - a good recommendation Bill - I think I have some of
the originals ......must dust 'em down and have a read again.
Cheers
Rob Kimberley
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of WB6BNQ
Sent: 18 December 2007 07:39
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ronald Held's main question
Hi Ronald,
Here are 3 Hewlett Packard appnotes that are in the same vain as the NBS 140
booklet. In
many ways these HP items are better written. The first one was written in
1961. The
second one is an update (1974), as is the third (1976). Each are different
and equally
worth having on the shelf.
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6171EN.pdf
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6183EN.pdf
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-6247EN.pdf
Bill....WB6BNQ
WB6BNQ wrote:
> Hi Ronald,
>
> This list server is composed of three general classes of people. Those
who 1) have
> just a passing interest in the subject, 2) those who delve into it on a
professional
> or amateur working level and 3) Some seriously warped individuals who far
exceed the
> distribution of what is considered normal (you know who you are!).
>
> Because of the above definition, the range of provided answers will cover
many view
> points. Thus, you may find the responses difficult to sort out for your
purposes.
>
> I may be wrong but am going to deduce from your last sentence, "If I can
get a signal
> inside or outside, what then ?", that you have had very little to no
exposure to the
> field of Time and Frequency Metrology. In that regard, and to answer
your question,
> I highly suggest reading the following NIST publications.
>
> # 1. The first is a general history of NIST and its standards. It is
noteworthy
> because it gives a sense of why we are where we are today.
>
> http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/1485.pdf
>
> # 2. The second one is a short paper that delves into the mechanics of
Time &
> Frequency measurement. This one will give you a basic understanding of
how it is
> done. This paper is clearly part of a bigger publication, although I
have not seen
> the whole publication.
>
> http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/1498.pdf
>
> # 3. This is the - - - BIBLE - - - Strongly recommended
>
> This is a very large manual at more than 80 megabytes, but very well worth
the time
> to download it. This NBS (NIST) publication, produced in 1974, should be
the defacto
> reading material for any starting class in Time & Frequency metrology.
Why some
> idealist at NIST lost their marbles and decided they should not make it
available on
> their WEB site is beyond me.
>
> Fortunately, it is available at the following Hawaii University site :
>
> http://digicoll.manoa.hawaii.edu/techreports/PDF/NBS140.pdf
>
> It seems that you have some need or want to make your computer more
accurate from a
> TIME point of view. A number of approaches can be used for such an
undertaking. If
> you are just looking to make you computer relatively accurate, a few
computer
> programs are available that will synchronize your computer to a recognized
NETWORK
> standard server. This method may be all that you need and it requires no
local
> hardware and fussing with antennas and the like.
>
> Before spending money and physical effort that may not be necessary,
please read
> through the 3 above references to determine if you really want to get
involved to the
> level of additional hardware and expense.
>
> Bill....WB6BNQ
>
> Ronald Held wrote:
>
> > Since the moving option is out, perhaps I need to investigate whether
> > I currently can get any inside or outside signal. Is ther3=e an
> > inexpensive way given that I do not have any circuit assemble skills?
> > The complex will allow dishes as long as the are completely inside the
> > balcony(I speculate that it is at the behest of the local cable
> > company). I do not recall seeing any dishes on building in my complex.
> > If I can get a signal inside or outside, what then?
> > Ronald
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.
------------------------------
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