[time-nuts] Ultra Ultra Ultra Very Low phase noise 10 MHz oscillator (Low Noise Option)!!

[Rob Kimberley]

Martyn

Who was the Russian company?

Regards

Rob Kimberley

Martyn Smith wrote:
> Hi,
>
> A while ago I claimed that my company is to bring out the lowest phase noise
> 10 MHz oscillator.
>
> This was partly done with tongue in cheek to see what response I got.
>
> A lot of people came back with alternative oscillators with even lower phase
> noise.  But I have to say I still haven't seem a better unit that is
> actually available.
>
> Someone mentioned Oscilloquartz BVA oscillator.  Although this is great at 1
> Hz, it only makes -145 dBc at 10 kHz which is very poor.  Also a $10k price
> and one year delivery period isn't what I call a readily available unit (not
> that I am in production yet, either).
>
> Other units that people mentioned don't seem to be made anymore, or just not
> available.
>
> So it seems Wenzel is still king at the moment, but they can also take 20
> weeks to deliver.
>
> Anyway,  I've just found someone from Russia who knocks everyone out of the
> air.  They claim -161 dBc/Hz at 1 Hz with a -183 dBc/Hz floor noise.  Now
> that's what I call low noise.
>
> Anyone know any more about this?  I'm trying to make contact with the guy
> but no success yet.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Martyn
>
> This Email is from:
>
> Martyn Smith
> Precision Test Systems LTD
> Tel: +44 (0) 1245 329608
> Email: martyn at ptsyst.com
> Web: www.ptsyst.com
>
> NOTICE - This message contains legally privileged and confidential
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>
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> responsible for its contents and/or attachments, if the communication
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>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <time-nuts-request at febo.com>
> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 12:15 AM
> Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 41, Issue 20
>
>
>   
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>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>   1. HP105A/B technical documentation? (Christoffer Bruman)
>>   2. Wavecrest DTS-2070C in the house (Magnus Danielson)
>>   3. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Didier Juges)
>>   4. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Didier Juges)
>>   5. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
>>      (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
>>   6. Re: Cesium Oscialltors and Low Phase Noise Frequency Standard
>>      (Enrico Rubiola)
>>   7. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Magnus Danielson)
>>   8. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Brian Styles)
>>   9. Re: Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA?? (Enrico Rubiola)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 20:12:49 +0100
>> From: Christoffer Bruman <bruman at telia.com>
>> Subject: [time-nuts] HP105A/B technical documentation?
>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> Message-ID: <47599B31.7020703 at telia.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> I am searching for a service manual (or at least a complete schematic)
>> of HP:s 105A (or B) frequency standard, preferably the later version
>> with the 10811x inside. There seems to be plenty of information
>> downloadable on the 10811x itself, but I am interested in the details on
>> how HP solved things like power supply, grounding, internal EFC,
>> external DC inlet, etc in these units.
>>
>> If anyone has any useful links to the manual or a schematic, or
>> shareable files, I would be very thankful.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Christoffer :)
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:43:36 +0100 (CET)
>> From: Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
>> Subject: [time-nuts] Wavecrest DTS-2070C in the house
>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> Message-ID: <20071207.214336.-601741223.cfmd at bredband.net>
>> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> Hi fellow time-nuts!
>>
>> I am just happy to let you know that I am now proud owner of a Wavecrest
>> DTS-2070C. I also have a SIA-3000P from before, which is nice for jitter
>> but
>> not as versatile as you would wish at all times. I think the DTS will be a
>> nice
>> complement.
>>
>> I was not suspect it to be that large thought, but ah well, life is full
>> of
>> supprises.
>>
>> It fired up and I have it doing some counting going down, but I think it
>> is
>> time to read the manual to figure some things out. Otherwise it seems
>> fairly
>> easy to operate.
>>
>> The LCD is BIG, so there is no chance missing the numbers even from some
>> distance.
>>
>> Hmm. Time to make some shootout here... :)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:08:39 -0600
>> From: "Didier Juges" <didier at cox.net>
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
>> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
>> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>> Message-ID: <06db01c83926$1b2a0be0$6501a8c0 at didierhp>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> That would be pretty close, for once (referring to google translations :-)
>>
>> Here is the translation from Oscilloquartz themselves:
>>
>> "French expression meaning "Enclosure with Improved Ageing". The OSA BVA
>> crystal oscillators employ special techniques to achieve stability
>> performance, unmatched by any other crystal device, i.e. typically 1 x
>> 10-11/day."
>>
>> Didier KO4BB
>>
>>     
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com
>>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
>>> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:37 AM
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
>>>
>>> A googlized translation is:
>>>
>>> Improved Housing for Aging
>>>
>>> -Chuck Harris
>>>
>>> John Franke wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Try:
>>>>
>>>> Bo?tier ? Vieillissement Am?lior?
>>>>
>>>> John WA4WDL
>>>>
>>>>         
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:17:59 -0600
>> From: "Didier Juges" <didier at cox.net>
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
>> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
>> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>> Message-ID: <06dc01c83927$68d90520$6501a8c0 at didierhp>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so
>> either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is
>> something to it.
>>
>> Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is
>> actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed?
>>
>> Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really
>> well.
>>
>> Didier KO4BB
>>
>>     
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com
>>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Richard
>>> (Rick) Karlquist
>>> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
>>>
>>> Reminds me of the "SC" cut crystal.
>>> It either means "Stress Compensated" or "Santa Clara", where
>>> it was discovered :-)
>>>
>>> The BVA has been around for a long time and you would think
>>> that if there was really something to it, everybody would be
>>> making them.  Of course, they are very difficult to make.
>>>
>>> Rick Karlquist N6RK
>>>       
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2007 15:52:15 -0800
>> From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com>
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>> Message-ID: <4759DCAF.1030404 at karlquist.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Having low aging is nice, but the real problem is
>> frequency jumps.  Do we know that they are the best
>> in that respect?  If a crystal can jump 1E-10, then
>> that represents 10 days of aging all at once.
>>
>> Rick Karlquist, N6RK
>>
>> Didier Juges wrote:
>>     
>>> I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so
>>> either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is
>>> something to it.
>>>
>>> Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is
>>> actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed?
>>>
>>> Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really
>>> well.
>>>
>>> Didier KO4BB
>>>
>>>       
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com
>>>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Richard
>>>> (Rick) Karlquist
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 10:45 AM
>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
>>>>
>>>> Reminds me of the "SC" cut crystal.
>>>> It either means "Stress Compensated" or "Santa Clara", where
>>>> it was discovered :-)
>>>>
>>>> The BVA has been around for a long time and you would think
>>>> that if there was really something to it, everybody would be
>>>> making them.  Of course, they are very difficult to make.
>>>>
>>>> Rick Karlquist N6RK
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 01:07:00 +0100
>> From: Enrico Rubiola <rubiola at femto-st.fr>
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Cesium Oscialltors and Low Phase Noise
>> Frequency Standard
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>> Message-ID: <763FA38A-AFBE-41D9-89BF-D9F798827B71 at femto-st.fr>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>>
>> Martyn,
>> designing a Cs standard is not the job for a single man,
>> yet I might help you to find frustrated scientists who worked
>> on a Cs project (some 10 years ago I took a part in a project,
>> designing damn impossible precision electronics).
>>
>> About the noise of your quartz oscillator, not bad.
>> Yet:
>>
>> Oscilloquartz 8607 has -128.5 dBrad^2/Hz at 1 Hz offset, at 5 MHz,
>> which scales to -122.5 at 10 MHz, thus -125.5 dBc.
>> Off the shelf, may have some delay.
>>
>> Rakon has -132 dBrad^2/Hz at 1 Hz offset, at 5 MHz,
>> which scales to -126 at 10 MHz, thus -129 dBc.
>> Small production for space, not sure you can actually
>> buy it.
>>
>> In your oscillator, is the power dissipated by the quartz of
>> 40 microwatts?
>>
>> Can you send a spectrum?
>>
>> I am getting great fun in reverse engineering the oscillator
>> noise.  The noise I mean, not the oscillator.  This takes
>> some 40-50 pages of my forthcoming book on
>> phase noise and frequency stability in oscillators.
>> You can't enter an order number, you must wait for
>> Cambridge University Press, which is a non-profit
>> company.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Enrico
>>
>>
>> On 6 Dec 2007, at 15:12 , Martyn Smith wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Is there anyone out there clever enough to design me a cesium
>>> frequency standard??
>>>
>>> There's only two manufacturers that I know of and there's room for
>>> another supplier.
>>>
>>> Also you may be interested to read we have just developed what we
>>> believe to be the worlds lowest close-in phase noise 10 MHz
>>> oscillator.
>>>
>>> It makes -121 dBc/Hz @ 1 Hz.  Noise floor is only -162 dBc/Hz at
>>> the moment, but we are working on reducing this a further 5 to 10 dB.
>>>
>>> Enter your order number here......
>>>
>>> Best Regards
>>>
>>> Martyn
>>>
>>> This Email is from:
>>>
>>> Martyn Smith
>>> Precision Test Systems LTD
>>> Tel: +44 (0) 1245 329608
>>> Email: martyn at ptsyst.com
>>> Web: www.ptsyst.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/
>>> time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>       
>> Enrico Rubiola
>> professor of electronics
>>
>> web: http://rubiola.org
>> e-mail: rubiola at femto-st.fr
>>
>> FEMTO-ST Institute
>> 32 av. de l'Observatoire
>> 25044 Besancon, FRANCE
>> voice: +33(0)381.853940 (E.Rubiola)
>> voice: +33(0)381.853999 (switchboard)
>> fax: +33(0)381.853998
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 01:10:09 +0100 (CET)
>> From: Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
>> To: time-nuts at febo.com, didier at cox.net
>> Message-ID: <20071208.011009.-1748779747.cfmd at bredband.net>
>> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> From: "Didier Juges" <didier at cox.net>
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
>> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:17:59 -0600
>> Message-ID: <06dc01c83927$68d90520$6501a8c0 at didierhp>
>>
>>     
>>> I am not aware of other crystal oscillators with better performance, so
>>> either I am missing something (the more likely explanation) or there is
>>> something to it.
>>>
>>> Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance is
>>> actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed?
>>>       
>> Let's recall that the BVA isn't the same as a cut, but rather an approach
>> to
>> handle and mount the cut crystal. The BVA exists in both AT and SC cuts.
>>
>> The analysis of Rick et.al. for the E1938 was pointing in another
>> improvement.
>>
>> Also, there are many ways to cut a crystal. :)
>>
>> Smokescreen or not, Oscilloquartz clearly beleive in the BVA methodology
>> and
>> they seems to have customers for them too.
>>
>> Is the E1938 commercially available? If not, is there a followup?
>>
>> Do we really need BVAs or similars for most new designs, considering the
>> price,
>> size and availability of modern telecom rubidiums?
>>
>>     
>>> Or maybe their oscillators are not that good, they just blow smoke really
>>> well.
>>>       
>> Well, that would be stupid, since it is easy enought to measure and
>> verify.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 00:15:11 +0000
>> From: Brian Styles <brian.styles at cdmnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>> Message-ID: <4759E20F.8090408 at cdmnet.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Didier Juges wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Maybe the cut is simply a smoke screen and the outstanding performance
>>> is actually due to other process detail(s) not disclosed?
>>>       
>> There's quite a bit of guff on the "Oscilloquartz" website - especially
>> if you find your way to the OXCO 8607-B datasheet (pdf).
>>
>> I'm not qualified to weigh this all up, but they point out a double oven
>> and an "electrodeless, SC-cut, 3rd overtone crystal, decoupled from its
>> mounting structure by four rigid bridges". And they go on to list the
>> consquent benefits.
>>
>> They've made over 10,000 of them. Anyone know what they're charging...?
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>>
>>
>> -Brian Styles
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 01:15:00 +0100
>> From: Enrico Rubiola <rubiola at femto-st.fr>
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Super stable BVA Quartz resonators... BVA??
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>> Message-ID: <1DC37668-4B01-4B64-9092-845440283C49 at femto-st.fr>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>>
>> BVA is a French acronym, it means
>> Besson Vieillissement Amelior?
>> Reymond Besson is the scientist who invented it, here in Besancon,
>> a friend of mine, officially retired, yet still at work.
>> "Vieillissement" means aging,
>> "Amelior?" means improved.
>>
>> Somebody says that it also means "Besson vieux ?ne", if you
>> know French, and French culture because this is not the kind
>> of thing you can translate without killing the meaning.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7 Dec 2007, at 17:15 , Michael Baker wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Hello, All--
>>>
>>> In doing some reading to educate myself on the relative
>>> short and long-term stability characteristics of the best
>>> grade quartz resonators, I find that BVA cut resonators
>>> are on the leading edge of quartz crystal technology.
>>>
>>> I have found out how a BVA resonator is fabricated, but
>>> I have not discovered what the acronym "BVA" stands for.
>>>
>>> I suspect that the "B" in "BVA" may refer to Raymond Besson
>>> the discoverer of the BVA quartz resonator, but I
>>> have not been able to confirm that.
>>>
>>> Can anyone on the list shed some light on this?
>>>
>>> Mike Baker
>>> ----------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/
>>> time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>       
>> Enrico Rubiola
>> professor of electronics
>>
>> web: http://rubiola.org
>> e-mail: rubiola at femto-st.fr
>>
>> FEMTO-ST Institute
>> 32 av. de l'Observatoire
>> 25044 Besancon, FRANCE
>> voice: +33(0)381.853940 (E.Rubiola)
>> voice: +33(0)381.853999 (switchboard)
>> fax: +33(0)381.853998
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list
>> time-nuts at febo.com
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>
>> End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 41, Issue 20
>> *****************************************
>>
>>     
>
>
>
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