[time-nuts] Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale

Tom Knox actast at hotmail.com
Sun Mar 3 15:49:48 EST 2013



I use some Pomonas also and I think they are single shielded except the Y which is double shielded. This may explain some artifacts I have in my house reference. 
Great Thread
Thomas Knox



> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> From: johncroos at aol.com
> Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 14:08:15 -0500
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale
> 
> I could not agree more, having been burned once or twice.
> 
> One batch of "50 Ohm" cables was clearly marked 75 Ohms when received. These used some form of
> relatively high resistance foil shield and a drain wire for the outer conductor. The high resistance permitted
> a ground loop with hum on my 10 MHz reference thus FMing my signal generator.
> 
> A couple of things to note:
> 
> Measure the DC resistance between the connector bodies it should be way less than 1 Ohm, perhaps
> 0.1 ohm above what you see with the probes shorted.
> 
> The previous regarding RG-58 apply unless the cable is labeled with a manufacturers part number and that is stated in the vendors spec -
> 
> Such as 
> 
> BELDEN 8262 RG-58U Coaxial BNC M/M Patch Cable 10FT.
> 
> RG58 C/U MIL C17 50 OHMS stamped on the cable.
> 
> These were from - Digital Connections - cablesellforless at yahoo.com and purchased via eBay. The price was very reasonable.
> 
> Testing with a HP ANA showed very low VSWR and the expected insertion loss up to 1 GHz. Shield resistance was very low, as expected. I have used these in lengths from 3 ft to 20 ft with no difficulty.
> 
> The key here is the Belden part number in the vendors ad  that can be checked to see what you are getting. The MIL SPEC and RG58 etc was stamped on the cables when received.
> 
> For outstanding performance use RG-223 which is slightly larger than RG-58 and is a 50 Ohm cable
> having a very dense double sliver plated braid shield.
> 
> You can buy these made up for a small fortune or buy an odd lot of RG-223 on eBay and make your own. Pasternak has the connectors with the appropriate diameter nuts and collars. The connectors for Rg-58
> are had to make work on RG-223. Connectors for Type N and SMA are also available.
> 
> Installing  clamp style connectors on RG-223 requires a certain amount of passion (and a stainless steel welders tooth brush to comb the braid) but hey, no pain no gain.
> 
> -73 john k6iql
> 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-request <time-nuts-request at febo.com>
> To: time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Sun, Mar 3, 2013 11:00 am
> Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 104, Issue 13
> 
> 
> Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to
> 	time-nuts at febo.com
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	time-nuts-request at febo.com
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	time-nuts-owner at febo.com
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of time-nuts digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale (Bob Camp)
>    2. Re: webcam app to watch for and time stamp changes
>       (Magnus Danielson)
>    3. Re: Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale (John Ackermann)
>    4. Re: Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale (Kevin Rosenberg)
>    5. Re: Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale (Bob Camp)
>    6. Re: Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale (Jim Lux)
>    7. Re: webcam app to watch for and time stamp changes (cfo)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 10:10:38 -0500
> From: Bob Camp <lists at rtty.us>
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 	<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale
> Message-ID: <335213BF-BBF3-44BD-9A7A-0BD481028D59 at rtty.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> Hi
> 
> By any chance is the connector a BNC? They have been known to create similar 
> looking issues.
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Mar 3, 2013, at 9:59 AM, John Ackermann <jra at febo.com> wrote:
> 
> > I was measuring two OCXO and was getting some quite unusual results -- a 
> symmetrical frequency cycling of several more than 1e11 p-p, with a period of 
> around 15 seconds.
> > 
> > I removed an RG-58 3 foot jumper cable that fed 5 MHz from the rear panel of 
> another OCXO to a patch panel (where it was terminated in 50 ohms), and the 
> noise quieted right down.  See the attached frequency plot.
> > 
> > The other OXCO had a similar jumper cable in the path, and although the two 
> cables were not parallel to each other for any significant distance, there was 
> still enough signal radiation and pickup to cause a nasty problem.
> > 
> > Lesson learned -- use only double-shielded cable in the oscillator rack (and 
> in any RF measurement path) from now on.
> > 
> > John
> > <austron-fts-beat-note.png>_______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 16:29:15 +0100
> From: Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] webcam app to watch for and time stamp
> 	changes
> Message-ID: <51336C4B.4030803 at rubidium.dyndns.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> On 03/03/2013 03:46 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
> > On 3/3/13 1:00 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >> --------
> >> In message <657D7F7CC03849419A2A90752E6A60A6 at pc52>, "Tom Van Baak"
> >> writes:
> >>
> >>> When playing with watches a while ago I tried to pick up any 32
> >>> kHz signal but failed. Those with 1 Hz stepper motors were easy,
> >>> but LED or LCD displays were too electro/magnetic/acoustic quiet
> >>> for me to ever detect anything.
> >>
> >> Most LCD and LED clocks have a shielding metal-coating on the front
> >> glass, exactly to eliminate all EMI/EMC issues.
> >>
> >
> > Yes, but perhaps there's enough leakage to make this work. After all,
> > the EMI requirement (assuming it's running at 32 kHz) isn't particularly
> > stringent and because the fob is small, the radiated field at any
> > distance is going to very small. OTOH, I can put a probe or coil right
> > on or around the fob.
> >
> > I'll let you all know what I detect when I try it tomorrow.
> 
> An electrostatic shield will not contain the H-field from the shifting 
> currents.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 10:46:10 -0500
> From: John Ackermann <jra at febo.com>
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 	<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale
> Message-ID: <51337042.4020600 at febo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Yup, they are BNC (by necessity).  I'm still experimenting but it may be 
> an ill-fitting connector on the cheap patch cable.  Switching to a 
> better quality cable seems to have solved the problem, one way or the other.
> 
> John
> ----
> Bob Camp said the following on 03/03/2013 10:10 AM:
> > Hi
> >
> > By any chance is the connector a BNC? They have been known to create similar 
> looking issues.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > On Mar 3, 2013, at 9:59 AM, John Ackermann <jra at febo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I was measuring two OCXO and was getting some quite unusual results -- a 
> symmetrical frequency cycling of several more than 1e11 p-p, with a period of 
> around 15 seconds.
> >>
> >> I removed an RG-58 3 foot jumper cable that fed 5 MHz from the rear panel of 
> another OCXO to a patch panel (where it was terminated in 50 ohms), and the 
> noise quieted right down.  See the attached frequency plot.
> >>
> >> The other OXCO had a similar jumper cable in the path, and although the two 
> cables were not parallel to each other for any significant distance, there was 
> still enough signal radiation and pickup to cause a nasty problem.
> >>
> >> Lesson learned -- use only double-shielded cable in the oscillator rack (and 
> in any RF measurement path) from now on.
> >>
> >> John
> >> <austron-fts-beat-note.png>_______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 09:00:03 -0700
> From: Kevin Rosenberg <kevin at rosenberg.net>
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 	<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale
> Message-ID: <032C3CB2-5C27-4338-8196-697415F7E10A at rosenberg.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> On Mar 3, 2013, at 7:59 AM, John Ackermann <jra at febo.com> wrote:
> > Lesson learned -- use only double-shielded cable in the oscillator rack (and 
> in any RF measurement path) from now on.
> 
> I've learned that lesson as well. John Miles said that RG-58 is occasionally 
> referred to as 'soaker hose'.
> 
> Kevin
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 11:08:45 -0500
> From: Bob Camp <lists at rtty.us>
> To: John Ackermann <jra at febo.com>
> Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 	<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale
> Message-ID: <6A29D6E9-B3BA-4E3C-B10B-E91F3081689D at rtty.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> 
> Hi
> 
> BNC's suffer from shield separation issues and from basic wear out on the 
> connector it's self. Cheap coax = shield seperation. On the connector its self 
> it's either plating or loss of spring in the fingers.  The best solution is to 
> cut the connector off the cable. That way at least it doesn't mess you up a 
> second time. Once you get a big enough pile of single ended cables, it's time to 
> get out the crimp tool?.
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Mar 3, 2013, at 10:46 AM, John Ackermann <jra at febo.com> wrote:
> 
> > Yup, they are BNC (by necessity).  I'm still experimenting but it may be an 
> ill-fitting connector on the cheap patch cable.  Switching to a better quality 
> cable seems to have solved the problem, one way or the other.
> > 
> > John
> > ----
> > Bob Camp said the following on 03/03/2013 10:10 AM:
> >> Hi
> >> 
> >> By any chance is the connector a BNC? They have been known to create similar 
> looking issues.
> >> 
> >> Bob
> >> 
> >> On Mar 3, 2013, at 9:59 AM, John Ackermann <jra at febo.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> I was measuring two OCXO and was getting some quite unusual results -- a 
> symmetrical frequency cycling of several more than 1e11 p-p, with a period of 
> around 15 seconds.
> >>> 
> >>> I removed an RG-58 3 foot jumper cable that fed 5 MHz from the rear panel of 
> another OCXO to a patch panel (where it was terminated in 50 ohms), and the 
> noise quieted right down.  See the attached frequency plot.
> >>> 
> >>> The other OXCO had a similar jumper cable in the path, and although the two 
> cables were not parallel to each other for any significant distance, there was 
> still enough signal radiation and pickup to cause a nasty problem.
> >>> 
> >>> Lesson learned -- use only double-shielded cable in the oscillator rack (and 
> in any RF measurement path) from now on.
> >>> 
> >>> John
> >>> <austron-fts-beat-note.png>_______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >> 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2013 08:30:43 -0800
> From: Jim Lux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Don't use cheap cables -- a cautionary tale
> Message-ID: <51337AB3.6020701 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> On 3/3/13 8:00 AM, Kevin Rosenberg wrote:
> > On Mar 3, 2013, at 7:59 AM, John Ackermann <jra at febo.com> wrote:
> >> Lesson learned -- use only double-shielded cable in the oscillator rack (and 
> in any RF measurement path) from now on.
> >
> > I've learned that lesson as well. John Miles said that RG-58 is occasionally 
> referred to as 'soaker hose'.
> >
> RG-58 (which by the way, is a spec that officially no longer exists as 
> part of MIL-C17-28, ditto for RG-8, RG-213, etc. The military apparently 
> doesn't use PVC insulated wire any more.) comes in myriad forms all of 
> which bear a passing resemblance to each other.  (leaving aside the 
> RG-58A, RG-58, RG-58C differences).
> 
> The term seems to be used for any 50 ohm single shield coax that's about 
> 0.20 inch in diameter with solid polyethylene insulation. You really 
> need to look at the specific model number to know what the shielding 
> looks like. It could be anything from a  very loose weave of thin copper 
> strands to something nice and dense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 16:52:06 +0000 (UTC)
> From: cfo <xnews3 at luna.dyndns.dk>
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] webcam app to watch for and time stamp
> 	changes
> Message-ID: <kgvv3m$ug7$1 at ger.gmane.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> On Sat, 02 Mar 2013 11:33:02 -0800, Jim Lux wrote:
> 
> > I am interested in the timing behavior of my RSA fob, which changes
> > every 60 seconds.  Since I'm not about to open it up and probe inside, I
> > was wondering if someone had a clever way, say using a USB web cam, to
> > log the changes over a 48 hour period.  You'd point the web cam at the
> > fob, and it would log the time when the display changes Or one might
> > even be able to look at the blinking 1 pps indicator using a light and
> > photocell or something..
> 
> Isn't this "Just what the doctor ordered"
> http://smallhacks.wordpress.com/2012/11/11/reading-codes-from-rsa-
> secureid-token/
> 
> CFO
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list
> time-nuts at febo.com
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> 
> End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 104, Issue 13
> ******************************************
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
 		 	   		  


More information about the time-nuts mailing list