[time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone

Bill Hawkins bill at iaxs.net
Sat Aug 8 13:59:33 EDT 2015 

Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware.

I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore
receivers. 
Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to
use a new
crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the
messages
required to do that.

The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as
ASCII
characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited
with
explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and
after many
years working with computers have no desire to acquire them.

The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The
problem
with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels
while
the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is
two
more groups of satellite data.

I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages.
Considering
the low level of interest in this subject, please write to bill at iaxs.net
for 
further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please
make a
reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with a
28 volt
3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is being
downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other
stuff.

Bill Hawkins
Bloomington, MN 55438


-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Camp
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone

Hi

As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the SA
era
(this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction information.
The signal
spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make it
worth 
playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does sound
reasonable. 

As with any “absolute” statement, there are sure to be exceptions 
..

======

For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right locations.
The KS
does not care that it always sees the same sat’s at the same locations
directly
over it’s own north pole location. It just wants data in the field. 

It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits here
and there.
None of them appear to be hard to guess. All of the specs for the Oncore
strings
are something Mr Google knows a lot about. 

If you do try to synthesize *real* strings off something like a uBlox,
remember that 
each of these guys had a slightly different idea about when the PPS
fired relative to 
things like correction data and the time label on that PPS. Getting the
time label wrong
is pretty easy to fix. I (unfortunately) have more than ample empirical
evidence of
what getting the sawtooth correction off one second does. It’s far
harder to track down
when only looking at the “outside” of the device.

Bob

> On Aug 7, 2015, at 8:18 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dan exactly my thinking.
> I will guess it wants the string that says I have a 3d position lock.
> Something like @@ and 30-40 characters that would be fixed.I think
there is
> a CRC at the end. But all of the message can be copied from a real
oncore
> or simply monitor what comes out of the KS GPS unit. Hard to say whats
> needed but a good discussion. Be it any number of uProcs they can all
> easily do a fixed string.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:13 PM, D W <watsondaniel3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Yes, I'm hoping that it just wants a dummy string to say GPS is ok,
and
>> doesn't actually use any information in it. If that's the case, code
can be
>> developed for PIC and AVR that will work for just about anyone, using
a ~$1
>> chip.
>> 
>> Even if the string does need to contain real GPS info, it should
still be
>> quite easy to do.
>> 
>> A while back I wrote some code to parse the serial string from a
Jupiter-T
>> and display the information on a 4 line LCD display. It worked very
nicely
>> but I never did anything useful with it. I think I'll take Bob's
notes and
>> incorporate the REF-0. That would make for a very compact setup.
>> 
>> Dan
>> 
>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 2:06 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Looking forward to the notes.
>>> Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that
>>> essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps
after
>> that
>>> the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with
the
>>> correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low
end
>> ones
>>> will do that stunt very easily.
>>> That would be pretty sweet.
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi
>>>> 
>>>> Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably
take a
>>>> few days
>>>> to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions.
>>>> 
>>>> What you will need:
>>>> 
>>>> 1) A working REF-0
>>>> 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going
>>>> 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do)
>>>> 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0
>>>> 
>>>> Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time it’s booted, there is
no
>> real
>>>> advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix.
>>>> 
>>>> More to follow.
>>>> 
>>>> Bob
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham <planophore at aei.ca> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would like that information too please and thank you.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second
REF-0
>>>> that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet
to
>> figure
>>>> out what is needed.
>>>>> 
>>>>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position
locked in
>>>> and spitting out the right strings.
>>>>>> That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply
grabs
>>>> the data off of the string
>>>>>> as it comes by.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off
list.
>>>> It’s buried around here somewhere.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva <
>>>> time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have some Motorola Oncore available.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal
lines"?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Edésio
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box
>> discussions.
>>>> All of the work decoding
>>>>>>>> the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off
list.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Simple answer:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string
that
>>>> looks like the output
>>>>>>>> of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple
manipulation
>>>> of the signal lines.
>>>>>>>> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva <
>>>> time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hello Fellows!
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without
GPS,
>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to
>>>> configure it?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 +
USD
>>>> 52.30
>>>>>>>>> (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as
custom
>>>> taxes.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Edésio
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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