[time-nuts] AM vs PM noise of signal sources

Joseph Gwinn joegwinn at comcast.net
Fri Jan 5 15:16:54 EST 2018

On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 12:00:01 -0500, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote:
> Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to
> 	time-nuts at febo.com
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	time-nuts-request at febo.com
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	time-nuts-owner at febo.com
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of time-nuts digest..."
> Today's Topics:
>    1. Re: Stable32 now available (Graham)
>    2. Re: Stable32 now available (Dr. David Kirkby)
>    3. Re: AM vs PM noise of signal sources (Bob kb8tq)
>    4. HP 105B: Modern replacement for NiCad battery pack?
>       (Ulf Kylenfall)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 10:56:17 -0500
> From: Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org>
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 	<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AM vs PM noise of signal sources
> Message-ID: <F69F7893-AE69-4430-BAFA-752746BD0CB3 at n1k.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
> Hi
> If I pass both a sine wave tone and a pile of audio noise through a 
> perfectly 
> linear circuit, I get no AM or PM noise sidebands on the signal. The 
> only way
> they combine is if the circuit is non-linear. There are a lot of ways 
> to model 
> this non-linearity. The “old school” approach is with a polynomial 
> function. That
> dates back at least into the 1930’s. The textbooks I used learning it 
> in the 1970’s 
> were written in the 1950’s. There are *many* decades of papers on 
> this stuff. 
> Simple answer is that some types of non-linearity transfer AM others 
> transfer PM. 
> Some transfer both. In some cases the spectrum of the modulation is 
> preserved.
> In some cases the spectrum is re-shaped by the modulation process. As 
> I recall 
> we spend a semester going over the basics of what does what. 
> These days, you have the wonders of non-linear circuit analysis. To 
> the degree 
> that your models are accurate and that the methods used work, I’m 
> sure it will 
> give you similar data compared to the “old school” stuff. 

All the points about the need for linearity are correct.  The best 
point of access to the math of phase noise (both AM and PM) is 
modulation theory - phase noise is low-index modulation of the RF 
carrier signal.  Given the very low modulation index, only the first 
term of the approximating Bessel series is significant.  The difference 
between AM and PM is the relative phasing of the modulation sidebands.  
Additive npose has no such phase relationship.

Joe Gwinn

> Bob
>> On Jan 5, 2018, at 6:27 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
>> On Tue, 2 Jan 2018 23:34:18 +0100
>> Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
>> [About AM noise being of equal power as PM noise]
>>> Now, for actual sources this is no longer true. The AM noise can be much
>>> higher, which is why it can be a real danger to the PM noise if there is
>>> a AM to PM noise conversion. One source of such conversion can be the
>>> amplification stage, but another could be a mistuned filter, which have
>>> different amplitudes of the side-bands, which can create conversion as
>>> the balance does not balance the same way anymore.
>> Yes, exactly. I am currently trying to understand how noise affects
>> circuits an how input and circuit noise get converted to output noise.
>> First assumption that needs to be dropped is that the noise processes
>> is purely additive and independent of the signal. This means that a
>> noise process does not anymore produce equal AM and PM power.
>> I think I have a 90% solution of the noise processes and conversions
>> in a sine-to-square converter (aka zero-crossing detector, aka comparator).
>> But there is one process that keeps puzzling me. I think I know where in
>> the circuit it must come from, but I have no explanation as to how 
>> it happens.
>> 				Attila Kinali
>> -- 
>> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
>> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
>> use without that foundation.
>>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
>> _______________________________________________
> End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 162, Issue 7
> *****************************************

More information about the time-nuts mailing list