[time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?

Magnus Danielson magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org
Sun Jan 10 13:30:41 UTC 2016

God eftermiddag,

On 01/10/2016 11:21 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> God morgon,
> On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 23:01:31 +0100
> Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
>>> A D-Flipflop is a rather weird mixer. I have not done the calculation,
>>> but i'm pretty sure that the output is not exactly what you'd expect
>>> it from a normal mixer (namely having half the energy at the frequeny
>>> difference and half at the sum).
>> It's not that wierd. It's a sampler, and thus it acts like a mixer as if
>> the signal is spikes, which is just another interpretation of the
>> Nyquist frequency aliasing. Meta-stability however creates an
>> "interesting" aspect.
> Ah right! That also explains my uneasy feeling about it :-)
> It's relatively easy to get around metastabilitiy: just add another
> couple of D-flipflops in series. Unfortunately, that will only fix
> the metastable lingering in-between. It wont fix the edge being at
> the wrong time.

Indeed. The second DFF will reduce the noise induced by the 
meta-stability. A small average shift in phase due to average 
meta-stability time-shift isn't usually a bit problem.

However, it's down-mixing abilities is relatively straight-forward.

>> A third digital phase-detector is the SR flip-flop. It avoids the 180
>> degree phase property (really a triangle wave signal) of the XOR, but
>> give a 360 degree phase sawtooth. This can be helpful in certain lock-up
>> conditions.
> SR-flipflop? Are you refering to the JK-FF phase detector or the PFD?

A straight SR-flipflop. I would have written JK-FF or PFD if I meant it.
Also, as I mentioned the PFD directly after, you could have concluded 
that was not what I intended.

A SR-flip-flop with no illegal input states is easy to build from a 74HC00.

>> The phase-frequency detector of the 4046 and the like has additional
>> flip-flops to remember slipped cycles and forcing the frequency to
>> regain that. Those provide a strong frequency lock mechanism with a
>> phase detector in one.
> Interesting... i have to look into the old datasheets.

It's really several SR flip-flops interconnected. It's intended to 
simplify design with a "digital" core, it aids in frequency lock as it 
pulls the integrator cap in the right direction stronger than the weak 
beating does on a distance in frequency difference. This way, you 
improve locking time for simple designs. There is other ways to aid the
loop known to the professional.

>>> Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
>>> (no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)
>> Well, you should wire the other parts into passive mode.
> That would be a waste of good PCB space ;-)

No. If you add noise through the other parts of the same chip, you will 
waste more PCB space to work around it.


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