[time-nuts] time-nuts Frequency Divider
xde-l2g3 at myamail.com
Fri Apr 3 02:02:29 UTC 2009
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 12:28:31 +1300
> From: Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Frequency Divider
> The problem is more accurately described as:
> When the bias network dc level at the 74AC04 (or 74HC04) inverter
> input isn't equal to the switching threshold of the particular
> device then AM modulation on the input signal is converted to
> phase noise as switching no longer occurs at the zero crossing of
> the input signal.
The problem is adequately described in my article. I show the AM/PM
conversion in "Fig 3. Threshold Switching", in
> Such behaviour is inherent when using a Schmitt trigger circuit
> and it cannot be cured with a feedback circuit that stabilises the
> output duty cycle.
The 74AC04 and 74HC04 are not Schmitt triggers, and are useful as
limiters as discussed here previously. The +/- 30% tolerance on the
switching threshold applies to the 74XX04 and pretty much all the
CMOS gates and flops as well. It is an inherent problem with
matching N and P channel mosfets.
However, in any limiter, the duty cycle must be controlled to avoid
AM/PM conversion, not just the 74XX series. This problem is solved
with the feedback method described in my article.
One of the surprises is the circuit is remarkably stable even with
huge changes in loop gain. I describe this near the bottom.
The 74XX14 is a Schmitt trigger, and it will have unavoidable
problems with AM/PM conversion. I mention this in the section,
"Cascading 74AC04's For More Gain", about 2/3 of the way down the
If the limiter has hysteresis, you can minimize AM/PM conversion on
one edge, but not both.
> A well designed limiter + filter cascade in front of the
> comparator, Schmitt trigger or logic gate can be used to minimise
> such AM to PM conversion whilst minimising the output jitter.
It doesn't matter what you put in front of the limiter. Adding
another one in front just moves the problem further upstream, and
adds more phase noise.
Unless the switching threshold in the limiter is controlled to set
the duty cycle to 50%, you will have problems with AM/PM conversion.
Also, it might be desirable to add some voltage trim to compensate
for harmonic distortion.
Here is the response to your next post to save time:
> Its well worthwhile estimating the additional jitter due to this
> effect when using such a circuit to square up the output of an OCXO:
> If the input signal characteristics are:
> Frequency 10MHz Amplitude at the gate input: A = 1.4V pk Threshold
> mismatch Vt = 1V AM noise: Am = -120dBc/Hz Input signal AM noise
> bandwidth: BW = 1MHz (eg a low Q bandpass filter).
> Rms Output jitter due to AM noise is given by
> delta(t) ~ (1/(2*PI*f))*((Vt/A)/(1 + (Vt/A)*(Vt/A)))*(BW*1)^(Am/20))
> delta(t) ~ 0.5*1.6E-8 *(1E-3) sec ~ 8ps rms.
> Wideband AM noise as high as -120dBc/Hz is somewhat higher than is
> typical for a good OCXO.
> Thus in applications such as a PPS divider this effect is probably
> However it may be useful to use a low Q bandpass filter to limit the
> integrated AM and PM noise seen at the gate input.
I did not have time to check your math. However, 8ps rms jitter
would be unacceptable in many applications.
A low Q bandpass filter has been discussed here often. It may not
help the jitter until the bandwidth is quite narrow, and it will
cause other problems with drift due to aging and tempco.
I am unfortunately very busy at the moment, and will not have time
to follow this thread further.
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