[time-nuts] Basic question regarding comparing two frequencies

John Ackermann N8UR jra at febo.com
Mon Jul 26 21:45:45 UTC 2010


Here's data showing Doppler (and other effects) on WWV as received in 
Dayton, OH over several days.  I took this by reading an HP 3586C 
frequency counter output via GPIB -- which seems to be a good technique 
for long-term HF frequency gathering.  You need to figure out a way to 
remove outliers and signal loss periods from any averaging, but the 0.01 
dB amplitude readout gives you a tool to help do that.

http://www.febo.com/pages/hf_stability/

John
----
Didier Juges wrote:
> The only way to have that kind of meaningful accuracy with an on-air signal outside of ground wave range (a.k.a FMT) is to average over a long time (days) to average out the shift due to variations in propagation. The altitude of the layer reflecting the signals changes over time, so the distance the signal has to travel changes too, causing a Doppler shift. Measuring WWV at 15MHz over a 24 hour period shows about 1Hz pp variation (that's what I found the last time I did with my Thunderbolt locked HP3586). If you make a short term measurement (a few minutes) you may be off by 1/2Hz easily regardless of the accuracy of your equipment.
> 
> You may well be able to measure the frequency of the incoming signal to 0.001Hz, but it will be sheer luck if it is the same frequency they are transmitting.
> 
> Didier KO4BB
> 
> 
>  
> ------------------------ 
> Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things...
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Guy Lewis" <guyl at coho.net>
> Sender: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com
> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:50:49 
> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 	<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Basic question regarding comparing two frequencies
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>>> There is another way to compare two frequencies, relevant when  they 
>>> are
>>> very close together................... 
> -------------------------------------
> I am trying to measure the frequency of a distant on-air signal, with path
> fading, Doppler shift, and maybe even AM modulation and would appreciate
> comments that might improve accuracy to better than .01Hz. The idea is to
> measure the frequency of an audio beat between a disciplined synthesized
> generator and the on-air signal, the subtract out the difference. Here is
> what I am doing:
> 
> Equipment:
> GPS Disciplined Oscillator (HP 3816A with antenna)
> Synthesized generator with .001Hz resolution (HP3335A locked to GPS 10 MHz
> reference)
> PC running Spectrum Lab sound card audio spectrum analyzer software
> Second locked synthesizer (Fluke 6061A) to determine Spectrum Lab frequency
> error
> AM receiver (TS940 for 30kHz to 30 MHz) and antenna covering unknown
> frequency to be measured
> Input signal combiner (Merrimac 50 ohm combiner) or leak into receiver
> across Ext Rx switch
> 
> Setup:
> 1a. Disable TS940 transmit mode (power set to minimum, PTT disabled, don't
> touch SEND)
> Install power splitter at Rx input to mix unknown and synthesized generator
> signals
> --or:--
> 1b. (preferred alternative, to avoid accidently transmitting into the
> generator), leak generator signal into TS940 across Rx antenna switch at a
> higher level
> 2. Lock generator to external GPSDO. All OCXOs run full time
> 3. Connect audio out to PC running Spectrum Lab
> 4. Allow PC to warm up for at least 30 minutes and measure second locked
> synthesized generator near the expected unknown frequency to determine
> Spectrum Lab measurement error
> 
> Measurement of unknown signal frequency:
> 1. Set Rx to approximate frequency of unknown signal, AM mode
> 2. Adjust generator to create a clean audio beat note (power, freq + 600 Hz
> audio freq, narrow AM filter)
> 3. Be sure clockwise rotation of generator frequency knob increases audio
> beat note frequency. Tune generator to upper side of signal if necessary
> 4. Read peak audio frequency from Spectrum Lab display
> 5. Subtract audio frequency (Spectrum Lab reading -measured .046 Hz error)
> from generator dial reading for result.
> 
> Example measuring WWV @ 10 MHz:
> 
> Rx tuned to 10 MHz, AM mode, Narrow Filter
> Antenna signal mixed with -70 dbm (-30dbm if leaked across Rx switch)
> generator signal. Adjust level for cleanest audio tone.
> Generator frequency tuned to generate 600 Hz beat note reading in Spectrum
> Lab
> Generator frequency reads 10.000599954
> Audio frequency increases as generator frequency is increased
> Spectrum Lab reads audio frequency 600.00 Hz
> Spectrum Lab frequency readout error known to be .046 Hz high (actual audio
> frequency is 599.954Hz) 
> 
> Calculation:
> Unknown freq = Fgen-(Fspeclab-Fspeclaberr)
> WWV freq = 10,000,599.954Hz-(600-.046Hz) = 10,000,000.000Hz +/-.01Hz
> 
> Any suggestions appreciated.
> 
> Guy
> N2GL
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.




More information about the time-nuts mailing list